Gevalt! Moshe Bunim Meyer is being Poretz Geder on Wednesday this week!! R' Padwa, who would not allow many great Tzadikim to be Mesader Kiddushin is giving Chaim Halpern his full backing.
Moshe Bunim Meyer called up Kedassia to ask Reshus if he is allowed to be Mechabud Chaim Halpern with Mesader Kiddushin, They asked R' S. Friedman and he said a flat NO, then the next day he got a call back saying that R Padwa overruled R S. Friedman and that Chaim Halpern could be Mesader Kiddushin, Direct from R' Padwa that he doesn't mind!!
It is simply mind-boggling that people are prepared to have anything to do with an organization headed by R' Padwa, who this very week is allowing our favourite rov to be mesader kiddushin. Yet what do the local Rabbonim do to protest? Nothing. They see or hear no evil when it comes from the 'sitra di'yemina',
what a disgrace! how dare padwa allow this... i know of times where he hasn't allowed great rabbunim to mesader kiddishin but now hes letting this monster do it???
ReplyDeletehamavyish berabim ein chelck olam haba even if ur right
Deleterashi says we learn from yehoda and tomar so i suggest u all think again b4 u speak
במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקין כבוד לרב
DeleteI don't see the big deal.
ReplyDeleteApart from being a prestige or honour, which every individual is entitled to bestow upon whomever he chooses, Siddur Kiddushin carries no halachic bearing beyond knowing that the Kiddushin took place Ke'daas Moshe Ve'Yisroel, in the presence of 2 kosher eidim. Although the practice is to "give" this Kibbud to a Choshuver personality - as indeed the practice of asking such a person to read the Kesubah, or recite the 7 Brochos -it does not disqualify the marriage if a person of lesser status carries out these tasks.
Where the participants' status is an issue is in the choice of witnesses. A witness who is of a lax nature in his observance of Torah and Mitzvos, may well void the marriage. (Which according to a growing number of Poskim in Eretz Yisroel includes smokers who are not ignorant of the damage that smoking causes to one's health and the risks to life).
Furthermore, maybe we can learn from the Gemorrah, if a person is Mekadesh a woman on the condition that he is a Tzaddik, even if he is known to be quite the opposite, the marriage is intact, as when standing under the Chuppa he will have had a Hirhur Teshuva, maybe this Hirhur Teshuva is not necessarily restricted to the Chosson, but encompasses all who are standing under the Chuppa, where the Shecinah Itself is present. (As related to me by the Admor MiSadigura ZTVK"L).
May we all continue -בתשובה שלמה -enjoying many Semochos until we shall be Zoche to the great שמחה בביאת הגואל ובבנין הבית בב"א.
Cant agree with you Mr heller. This has nothing to do with whether the kedishin is kosher or not. kedassia are very very makpid on who they let be Mesdaer kidishin but are letting this shtik drek do it so obviously they completely back him. Also the bal simche obviously doesn't care less about all the other rabbunim in the whole kehille or what 98% of golders green think about what he does. He's cutting himself and his family off from the rest of us
ReplyDeleteDear Bill(?)
DeleteWhatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I believe that there is an ongoing police investigation, and that no charges have been made. The Union's special Beis din has not even heard a case, let alone made a psak. (It is true that the court of public opinion has already found him guilty.) There has been a giluy daas by a panel of prominent and most eminent Rabbonim, there have also been some private/quasi-public statements by other Rabbonim, to keep a distance from the alleged perpetrator, however, there has been some very strong rabbinic support for him too. The shiurim he gives in DC (71) & BS (171) are VERY well attended - I don't hear your outpouring condemnation of the attendants - notices for these shiurim posted describing him as a צדיק are signed off by the gabboim- you are equally lavish in your condemnation of them - Mr Meyer, rightly or wrongly, has chosen to retain his belief in the innocence of CH, continues to davven with him and considers him as his Rov. The Union has accepted his resignation as Dayan and has set up a special Beis din to investigate the claims and allegations against him, but have not suspended him from any form of office, including that of being a messader kiddushin. Furthermore, as the Chuppa is taking place on United Synagogue soil and they have not raised any queries about this matter, why should he not be messader kiddushin?
Yossi,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are quite correct. Chazal tell us 'Kol sh'einu yodia b'tiv gittin u'kiddushin lo yehi eisek imohem'. Forgive me if I have misquoted, but the gist is that anybody who does not know well the nature of kiddushin or gitting, should not in anyway be involved in them.
M'sader kissushin would certainly be included. Whilst failure to adhere to this principle would not invalidate the marriage, m'sadrei kiddushin do sometimes spot issues that can cause issues (at least lachatchilah) and can be rectified. Especially as the m'sader kiddushin is usually responsible for checking the kesuvah and the validity of the eidim.
It goes without saying that I am not passing an opinion on the person in question one way or the other.
Dearest Correction
DeleteI am reminded of a story about a NY University lecturer of ethics who was notorious for his lack of morals. To the point where the Dean called him in and informed him that he was being suspended because his immoral behaviour was untenable. The professor retorted that prior to teaching ethics, he was a maths professor for 20 years, but in all that time the Dean never suspended him for not being a triangle.
You are quite right, a messader kiddushin needs to be a boki btiv etc., which I am sure, that even his harshest critics must conceed, he is. Thus, even in the event that these allegations are found to be true, he remains a fitting candidate to be messader kiddushin. Fortunately, It is not the level of piousness which determins the eligibility for a messader, rather it is level of knowledge.
Respectfully
Yossi
lets have a demo wed 3.15 pm at kinloss
ReplyDeleteCheck out where the chosson lives...
ReplyDeleteYes דברי חיים - דברי חיים - לגזירה שוה
DeleteMma Nafshoch?
ReplyDeleteIf he called Dayan Friedman for his psak then why does'nt he stick to it?
BEcause that menuvel Padwa overruled him.
ReplyDeletehow can any of u come rosh hashana and daven to hashem when the loshan hora that comes out your mouth even if something is true its none of your buisness and to muck up a wedding i hope you ask mechila from the whole meyer and solevetick family as when you come up to heaven g-d will look on u and say how can i be don lecuf zechus to u when u were not to others as u have also ruined another servant that i created wedding, no place in heaven can except a person who ruins other lifes i hope they forgive u and if u dont care then i jollu hope u shiver on yom kipur because if you would see how u get judged u would regret what u have done but obviously u act very young and dont understand what u put yourself in to the non jews love when we fight and u just gave them a reward , inocent or guilty u people dont care you just want a fight i hope rabbi padwa will forgive u aswell to say padwa is a gangster shows you have no respect to a great person and hashem should look down on all the suffering you have caused and give reward to all those that have been put to shame.
Deleteבמקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקין כבוד לרב
DeleteYou write "no place in heaven can except a person who ruins other lifes"
DeleteHave you read what you wrote....?
even if right or wrong u cannot embaress some1 or ruin others
ReplyDeleteJust make sure the kalah, once married keeps away from CH and does not go to him for advice/massage etc. As he has a bit of a reputation of not being shoimer negiya!
ReplyDeletei love the site - keep it up - but it takes far too long to load. you prob have too many images/video (a link is better) and add ons etc.
ReplyDeletekeep up the good work!
A senior police officer was amazed!
ReplyDeleteThe commander asked why is it that in normal communities a pedo is harrassed but in your community the offender is protected and the victim and their families are treated as outcasts??
Yossi,
ReplyDeleteYou have completely missed the point of the story!
The story, supposedly said about Bertrand Russel, is used during mussar/hashkofo lessons to differentiate between the non Jewish view of academia which holds that having an immoral lifestyle and being an ethics teacher (for example) are no contradiction, and the Jewish view that lifestyle, actions, reputation etc and yedios/harbotzos hatorah are irreseperable and fundementally linked.
And I made it clear I am not talking about a particular person, I just take issue with your point that the m'sader kiddushin can pretty much be anyone the ba'al simchah chooses to honour. Because that's a dangerous and incorrect view. And I should have added checking the yichud room to my list of eidime and kesuvah.
And take a look at how the Rishonim and Acharonim explain that gemoroh about shema hirhur beteshuvoh. The problem is that teshuvah to be effective, needs vidui b'peh according to many. And also how can a shemah 'maybe' create a definite kiddushin? As with most things, its not as simple as you make out.
I should really add that some Rishonim explain the 'shema hirhur b'tshuvoh' gemoroh to mean there is only a sofek, doubtful kiddushin.
ReplyDeleteWould you really want to married with a sofek kiddushin?
Yossi,
ReplyDeleteApologies for commenting yet again, but your position is so fundamentally opposed to anything I have learnt I can't let it pass without further debate.
One of the reasons Pirkei Avos starts off with 'Moshe kibul torah mi'sinai' is to stress that ethics is an intrinsic part of torah, just like all the other mitzvos. The sayings of the Rabbonim and the way they carried out their life is as much torah as their shemiras hamitzvos.
Are you really suggesting you would be happy to have as a m'sader kiddushin somebody who is 'Yodea b'tiv kiddushin' but alleged not to be a proper shomer Shabbos? That's how I read your posts, please clarify if I am wrong.
Once again, please note I am debating you on a theoretical philisophical level and am not passing any opinion on subject matter in hand.
For numerous and personal reasons I am not publicly supporting or opposing any particular faction.
DeleteI am merely stating that the baal simcha, who truly believes in the innocence of his rov, is fully entitled to ask him to be MK. Particularly as there is no downside.
If you, or any body else, genuinely believes otherwise, why do you vilify this individual? Why don't you stop the shiurim, protest to Rav Padwa or get your rov to do something? But please don't take it out on a family who are having a private, by invitation, simcha.
Writing hypothetically & without casting aspersions at anyone. I’m saying that for marriage to take place the MK need only be a boki btiv... his level of observance doesn’t affect the kidushin. If the MK was Mechalel Shabos, or stood under the chupa in bloisen kop, or made a brocho bShem uMalchus under a chupa of a non sheitel wearing kalo, in all of these scenarios there will be no question on the chalois kidushin.
DeleteI agree with the you 100% that midos toivos & kiyum hamitzvois are an intrinsic part of toiroh, I can quote you numerous sources on how learning without good midos is not considered toiroh but is purely academic, however throughout the ages we have had plenty such Rabonim, who were only in it for money & kovod. In the days of the 2nd bayis kohanim gedoilim would buy their position. Would I choose such a rov to be MK at my simcha? Certainly not. Nor would I daven in his shul, go to his shiurim or have any shaychus with him. Nevertheless, if such a person were MK, kidushin would be chal without any chashoshos.
In the particular case of a rov who has had allegations made against him of improper or immoral activity which is under investigation; in law he has the presumption of innocence. Under Tora law, a person of high communal standing, eg a dayan, does not have that presumption; he can & should be placed in niduy, (מועד קטן י"ז.).
I reiterate, I am not publicizing my opinion of what transpired, which individual or group of Rabbis are greater in number or wisdom, who is right or not, etc. The undisputed facts are that one set of Rabbis published their giluy das indicating some level of guilt, another set of Rabbis publicly support his innocence, at least one rov has invoked the wrath of his long departed ancestors at anyone who talks negatively against the alleged perpetrator. UOHC’s head apparently has difficulty in deciding which way to go & what action, if any, should be taken. If he authorised that MK, if he is not supporting the "innocent" view, he is at least supporting my view, that the minimum standard required for a MK is to be a boki, irrespective of his standards in other aspects.
It is equally undisputed, that neither camp has made any attempt to place him in niduy.
Let’s take the hypothesis 1 level up. A temimusdik balabos, who has davened in this beis hamedrash for 30 years, is totally mesmerised by his rov, obediently follows every instruction. Suddenly scandalous allegations are made, he can't believe it. He is not alone; the majority of his co-mispalelim can’t believe it. Prominent Rabbis back the allegations, individual members start leaving. Still he can’t believe that his rov, who has helped so many, a marbitz Torah, who dispenses sage advice, davens with so much kavonoh & warmth, cries so much on Yom kipur that he must surely fill the cup of tears all on his own, blows the shofar that we can feel the malochim take the tekios straight to the Kisei HaKovod, by throwing an apple to someone on neilas hachag of simchas toroh guarantees him a good parnosoh for the year. He hears that the Rabbis who accused the rov have their own personal vendettas; this man is not alone in continuing his support for the rov. The minyan continues, chumash, ovos &, daf shiurim are more than well attended. Even the shiur given in other places has not seen a discernible drop in attendees. Certainly no one, not even the leaders of the opposition, has made any attempt to put him in niduy. It doesn't look like any of the alleged victims or the Rabbis, who have investigated & were convinced of guilt, have come forward to cooperate or give evidence to the police. UOHC allows it.
You may call him misguided if he has been personally privy to evidence. But if he believes in the innocence of his rov, why should he not ask him to be the MK?
"even if right or wrong u cannot embaress some1 or ruin others"
ReplyDeleteYour english is even worse then mine! we probably went to similar schools but your stupider then i am! Of course we can say bad things about the baal simche if he's using an outcast to take the most important role in the chasuna. it means that his simche is a way of thumbing his nose at the whole kehille so we can thumb our noses back!
i just started reading this and this is a disgrass how can any of u talk in ur jewish religion like that im not jewish but we all do mistakes and for any of you to speak against eachother shows how jewish people act we all do wrong but stop fighting with each other thats not what i thought jews were like...
ReplyDeletelol. I think you meant STAMFORD Hill. But if you are a copper you should be reported fro abusing the Queen's English with your "disgrass-ful" command of the vernacular
DeleteWhat a tool.
DeleteThis is the level of intelligence of his supporters.
Truly enough said.
Surely CH knew accepting this siddur kidushin would cause controversy?
ReplyDeleteCouldn't he just have said "Thank you very much but I'd rather give it a miss this time"?
But no.
"I deserve it and why shouldn't I."
"Who gives a toss about the fuss it will cause?"
"Why should I consider the baalei loshon horo?"
Yossi Heller - With all due respect, you are talking complete nonsense. The only 'rabbis' supporting him are his own family and some lowlives from N16, who have never met a chassidish molester they don't like (just google 'zeev feldman rapist'). Every decent rov who has been involved in this has been sickened by Chaim Halpern's vile antics, and you know this too. Yes, it is a disgrace that Moishe Bunim Meyer is sticking his middle finger up to all who have suffered at CH's hands (and that includes you). And yes, every rosho (or at best meshugeneh) still attending CH's shiurim deserves to be cast out from the kehillah. By tolerating CH's supporters you are actively enabling this sub human animal to return to power! This must not be allowed to happen!
ReplyDeleteהגם לכבוש את המלכה עמי בבית?!
ReplyDelete'UOHC Vaad Letohar Hamchne Hello How can we help you,'
ReplyDelete'Hello I am calling to report something juicy'
'Thats just what we are here for, please go on'
'Its about a Rov in town'
'Oh, is it a UOHC Rov'
'No'
'Brilliant, lets hear what you have for us'
'Well this Rov is on bail for Sexual Assault and today he wants to be mesader kedushin?!'
'Excuse me if we are reffering to the same person you said he is not a UOHC Rov?!'
'Correct he is not'
'Sorry not according to R Padwa, goodbye'
'Wait, I would just like to ask you a question'
'Ok'
'Just to clarify your hotline is to report non UOHC Rabonim'
'Correct'
'and RCH is still a Union Rov so he can officiate at Union Weddings'
'Correct'
'Do the UOHC actually endorse Sex Abuse?'
'Only if carried out by a UOHC Rov, have a nice day'
HAlpern animals - it is you who are talking utter nonsense. There are rabbis from NW11 who are not related to him that have publicly and vociferously supported his innocence.
ReplyDeleteI am also unsure what you mean by ‘chassidish molester’, is this person of any origin who only molests chassidim, a chossid who molests people of any origin or a chossid who only molests other chassidim? I have taken your advice and have made a Google search per your suggestion. I only found one instance; Rb Feldman apologising for having relied on information received from USA to describe someone as honourable when that person was indeed in jail for child molesting, however, in that instance the man’s status was totally irrelevant, as the dayan was promoting hachnossas kalloh for children.
If, as you claim, ‘every decent rov’ then either there are very few rabbonim who are decent or they have not been that sickened that they have taken much action. Correct me if I’m wrong. 5 Rabbonim have signed a giluy daas proclaiming the rov unfit for any rabbinic practice etc., yet accepted that he need only resign from external activities whilst retaining the right to be rov of his shul and to give shiurim even outside the shul. Another Rov has, following a special resolution of his shul membership, allowed the shul to no longer be associated with the UOHC - he himself maintains his union ties (Please note: My North West London Union Colleagues & I retain full confidence in the activities and supervision of Kedassia to include food production, The Mikvoos, Shaatnez etc. . The kehilla need have no doubts in this matter. [sic]). A further 2 rabbonim have penned letters that don’t really say anything and could be referring to anybody at any time; whilst maintaining their connection – synagogal or personal – with the union. Let’s recap, a total of 8 local rabbonim have taken some – at best – half-hearted steps; and you consider this the action of every decent rov?
Mr Meyer is not sticking his middle finger, or any other part of his anatomy, up at anyone. He chooses not to follow the findings of the GD, he continues to follow the guidance of the rabbonim he has been adhering to for 50 years. He follows the ruling of the UOHC Beis Din as he has done for years (and as confirmed by the Rov whose shul left the union – retains full confidence in the activities…). The RAVD authorised the MK, the Registrar turned up, the music played, the Kesuboh was read out, 6 people said the Sheva Brochos. You may not agree with the choice of MK, and if you were invited you had the option of walking out, but you can’t remove his right to determine the MK of his choice at his simcha.
IS CH HALPERN A DON JIOVANI,AS IN THE OUTSTANDING OPERA OF MOZART???? YES OR NO????WEITHER YES OR NO HE HAS CREATED AN UNFORGIVABLE HILLOUL ACHEM.!!!!!HE SHOULD APPOLOGISE URGENTLY FOR THE DISGRATEFULL ISSUE HE HAS CREATED AND SEEMS TO ENJOY,THIS IN ITSELF IS IMMORAL AND REPROBATE,AND EVIDENCEOF A DISREPUTABLE MANAND CERTAINLY NOT THE CONDUCT OF A RABBI.MISTER CHAIM HALPERN STOP PROPHANING THE NAME OF OUR BELOVED G-D, DON JIOVANI WAS FINALLY BURRIED ALIFE, BE AWAREWE DESERVE ONLY RABBANIM WHO LOVE AND RESPECT OUR BELOVED G-D. ACHEM ASHEM MECABEL BEAHAVA TEPHILATHI
ReplyDeleteI already commented please publish my previous comment:
ReplyDelete