מכה קשה ללוחמים בהרב חיים הלפרין בלונדון
שהתלוננו במשטרה כי שלשה אנשים ביניהם אחיו הפעילו לחצים ואף איימו והיו גם מי
שהציעו תשלום לשתי נשים שלא יעידו נגד הרב חים הלפרין. השלשה נעצרו בשעתו בקול רעש
גדול, והמשטרה במשך תקופה ארוכה מאוד ניסתה בכל דרך שהיא להוכיח כי אכן כך פני
הדברים ולא הצליחו
בית המשפט לא איפשר להגיש כתב אישום נגד השלשה מפני שלא היו הוכחות כלשהן פרט לרינונים וסיפורים שהגיעו מן הקהילה החרדית או יותר נכון מן המקוה נייעס שכך עשו השלשה - שמות החשודים היו גבריאל האסט אלכס שטראם והרב דוד הלפרין
שאלנו היום את אחד הפעילים נגד הלפרין איך הוא מסביר את זה, והוא אמר כי אין לו ספק כי השלשה עשו את מה שהם חשודים, אבל הבעיה היא העדות, אף אחד בגלוי לא יעיד במשטרה או בבית המשפט מפני שזה סופו בקהילה החרדית על מסירה לא ימחלו
על שאלתי מדוע זה לקח כל כך הרבה זמן, הוא אומר כי המשטרה בכל זאת לחצה ולחצה קיוותה כי בסופו של דבר יהיה לפחות עד רציני אחד אבל לא הצליחה ונאלצה להרים ידיים
מכאן עברנו לשאול ומה קורה עם הרב הלפרין, כאן המשטרה לא תוותר כל כך מהר מפני שמדובר במעשים ממש אם כי הם מתקשים בלהוכיח אין להם עדיין עדויות מי שיסכימו להתייצב ולהעיד נגדו ולכן זה נמשך למרות שהמשטרה יודעת כל פרט במה הוא חשוד ומה שקורה בקהילה החרדית בשנה האחרונה בפרשה הזו, אבל לא מצליחה לפרק את הטאבו שלא מעידים במשטרה ובבית המשפט רק בבית דין
זו הסיבה מדוע המשטרה בלונדון היתה מאוד רוצה שהדין תורה הידוע שאמור היה להתקיים שיתקיים זה היה מקל עליה, אחר הדין תורה הם היו מצווים להעביר להם את הפרטים וקל היה להאשים את הלפרין אם היה מורשע. אבל בשל המעצרים בוטל הדין תורה ומשטרת לונדון ממשיכה בחקירתה את ר' חיים הלפרין בתקוה כי הזמן יעשה את שלו אולי מי מן הנשים תשבר ותחליט כי היא מעידה
בית המשפט לא איפשר להגיש כתב אישום נגד השלשה מפני שלא היו הוכחות כלשהן פרט לרינונים וסיפורים שהגיעו מן הקהילה החרדית או יותר נכון מן המקוה נייעס שכך עשו השלשה - שמות החשודים היו גבריאל האסט אלכס שטראם והרב דוד הלפרין
שאלנו היום את אחד הפעילים נגד הלפרין איך הוא מסביר את זה, והוא אמר כי אין לו ספק כי השלשה עשו את מה שהם חשודים, אבל הבעיה היא העדות, אף אחד בגלוי לא יעיד במשטרה או בבית המשפט מפני שזה סופו בקהילה החרדית על מסירה לא ימחלו
על שאלתי מדוע זה לקח כל כך הרבה זמן, הוא אומר כי המשטרה בכל זאת לחצה ולחצה קיוותה כי בסופו של דבר יהיה לפחות עד רציני אחד אבל לא הצליחה ונאלצה להרים ידיים
מכאן עברנו לשאול ומה קורה עם הרב הלפרין, כאן המשטרה לא תוותר כל כך מהר מפני שמדובר במעשים ממש אם כי הם מתקשים בלהוכיח אין להם עדיין עדויות מי שיסכימו להתייצב ולהעיד נגדו ולכן זה נמשך למרות שהמשטרה יודעת כל פרט במה הוא חשוד ומה שקורה בקהילה החרדית בשנה האחרונה בפרשה הזו, אבל לא מצליחה לפרק את הטאבו שלא מעידים במשטרה ובבית המשפט רק בבית דין
זו הסיבה מדוע המשטרה בלונדון היתה מאוד רוצה שהדין תורה הידוע שאמור היה להתקיים שיתקיים זה היה מקל עליה, אחר הדין תורה הם היו מצווים להעביר להם את הפרטים וקל היה להאשים את הלפרין אם היה מורשע. אבל בשל המעצרים בוטל הדין תורה ומשטרת לונדון ממשיכה בחקירתה את ר' חיים הלפרין בתקוה כי הזמן יעשה את שלו אולי מי מן הנשים תשבר ותחליט כי היא מעידה
As things stand, there are 2 possible victims who are prepared to come forward; under certain conditions. The first victim requires someone else to join, so as not to be the only one to testify.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds fair, and as there is a second victim prepared to speak up, all we need is to comply with that persons, simple, condition and we're in business.
All that is needed is for an acceptable local rov to sign a letter stating that the person is permitted to testify in this case, according to halacha, and is not a moiser.
Small problem is, none of the chicken livered local rabbis have agreed to sign.
Simple calculus, no testimony - no trial, no trial - no charges, no charges - no point in renewing the bail requests....... .
To keep your credibility please don't bring anything from the Shoulson muckraker blog.
ReplyDeleteHe is a true lowlife ah gemeineh mentsch, but actually the real reason you should not bring anything from him is because most of what he writes are outright lies and the small kernel of truth in the blog is distorted.
Please, we in Boro Park know this menivel
Yisruel Ber, boro park
Anonymous, (not Yisroel Ber of BP, the first one), you seem to have some great insight of events.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't the Rabbonim give her (or him?) the letter? After all this time posturing that the alleged perpetrator is unfit for purpose. It was Rabbonim who initially brought the police into the harassment issue. If that wasn't mesira, why isn't testifying equally not mesira? And if it's not, why won't the rabbis sign?
There has unfortunately been chillul upon chillul, and nobody seems the least concerned about kvod Shomayim.
Firstly, when the story went out into the public domain.
2. The arrest of a Rov for abuse and 3 choshuv members of the kehilla for distorting the cause of justice. 3. The arrest of 2 further yidden for harassment.
4. The lack of cooperation by the victims, witnesses and Rabbonim. (There were numerous other examples of chilul H', but my point here is to encourage debate and perhaps a positive result will ensue).
Does anyone believe that the police, CPS & the judiciary think "how admirable are the Jews. They suspect some sexual and other abuse, they don't wish to make a massive fuss about it, so they ignore the laws of the land - the same land that offered them refuge from nazi and communist persecutions - and deal with it in a tried and failed way of sweeping it under the carpet. Unfortunately for them, there is so much dirt under the carpet, that they have tripped over it. We made arrests and were loudly hailed as the saviours of society. We then continue to pursue these cases to bring the perps to justice, but they wish to stand by their traditions of non cooperation.
It's ok for us to be called in when someone is bothering them, but after we've spent hours of police time and thousands of taxpayers money, their G-d doesn't let them testify.
It was okay when some youths broke into their synagogue, they rushed information to us. It's okay when a neighbour buids an extension which may leave them with a lesser view of his garden - although when he built his own extension that was not a consideration - to rush to the authorities and go to court to put a stop to it. But when an officer of the law gets beaten up, there is a community wide amnesia. Or in cases like the current batch, the Torah doesn't permit it."
This is a shame and a disgrace. Soon we start begging H' for forgiveness, whilst we continue to trample over His name.
We are duty bound to cooperate, and each one of us must impress upon the local Rabbonim to carry out their duty and responsibility to help the victims, help future victims, help the kehilla and help put a stop to this chilul H'. Let's seek truth and make a Kiddush H'.
לעולם יהא אדם ירא שמים....ודובר אמת
no rov in the world will send CH to prison. no one wants it on their watch.
ReplyDeleteNo rov in the world has the power to send anyone to prison.
DeleteWhat they are failing to do, is to write a letter to an alleged victim stating that it is their halachic opinion that providing the police with an affidavit and testifying before a Court of British justice, is permitted and is not an issur of mesira.
Its the police who investigate, the courts who judge and rule, the prison service who incarcerate and the probation service who monitor on release.
ReplyDeleteOur rabonim are our religious spiritual leaders. Our Rabonim do not "send people to prison".
Actually the crime send people to prison.
Our Rabbonim are supposed to be our teachers, mentors and guides. They are supposed to teach us right from wrong, and guide us in the ways of God's service.
DeleteThey ought to be fighting each other to be allowed to sign the letter, not hide behind their cloaks of ignobility.
a year ago ALL the rabonim were respected. Now as none of them want to send someone to prison they are all of a sudden a waste of time. If this is part of a rovs remit we wouldn't have rabonim. A rov is a job, like a plumber and electrician, Like your average electrician does not deal with a high voltage pylon our average rov is not interested and is not mechuyav to permit someone to give possible evidence that will send someone to prison.
ReplyDeleteA rov is not a job, it's a vocation and a way of life. A rov cannot go home after Mariv and watch TV, like a plumber or electrician can.
DeleteAnd even an average rov, is mechuyav to support his member. If they come to him and say this and that has happened to me. The police have arrested x, can I testify in court? And if yes, can I have it in writing so that if my kids are refused a place in school because of what mum did, I can prove that it was done under a psak haloche. Yes the rov is mechuyav.
If someone goes to jail as a result, so be it. It is not the remit of a rov to misinform, they should give the facts, explain the haloche and encourage us to do what is right.
Furthermore, a Rov is not just to sit next to the oron hakodesh and deliver the odd sermon. The responsibilities of a rov go far beyond advising the kehilla on how to kasher their ovens. They have to deal with all social aspects of the flock, from simchas to the gravest misfortunes. Schooling for children care for the elderly or infirm, even getting people out of prison, etc. etc.
DeleteRav Yoel of Satmar was introduced to an israeli who needed expensive medical attention in the US and gave him a large donation. He was an irreligious israeli news correspondent who had harshly criticised in the most vitriolic manner, Rav Yoel's personality because of his anti zionist and and State of Israel stance.
When he received this large sum he asked the Rov, how he could give so much money to such a harsh critic? Reb Yoel replied that is politics and your work, in which I strongly disagree with you; but you are foremost a yid in need, how can I refuse to help?
Your understanding of a Rov's role is too simplistic, and coincides with the stance RPR appears to have on the role. A view I harshly disagree with, and fortunately a view not held by the vast majority of Rabbonim.
Can you imagine if the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, the Satmar Rov, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ztvk"l would have taken the view that being a Rov is just a job?
להבחל"ח and not seeking such lofty examples, Rav Shimon Weingarten works tirelessly for anyone, member of his kehilla or not, as does Rb A Kimche. Allegations aside, R' Chaim Halpern was renowned for the variety of matters he dealt with. Other Rabbonim do the same to a larger or smaller extent with greater or lesser publicity for their involvement; but they all understand that being a Rov is not just a job. Being appointed as a rov may come with a salary, and the occasional humorous quip about 'just doing my job', but the reality is quite different.
Anyone thinking of taking on the 'job' of being a rov, with very few exceptions, knows he is taking on a tremendous yoke on his shoulders. Oftentimes not realising just how heavy that yoke is; but knowing that it is far more than a job with a salary.
Can you imagine if the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, the Satmar Rov, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ztvk"l would have taken the view that being a Rov is just a job?
Deleteyou don't realise how you have contradicted yourself!
A Rov is a job, a GODOL like those you mention is a vocation.
There is a fine line between them and its when people don't know the difference and turn a rov with a job into a gadol with a vocation he ends up doing arm wrestles with the ladies.
A Rov receives a wage a gadol does not. A Rov and Rosh yeshiva and magid shiur etc don't watch TV like a banker wouldn'nt wear a boiler suit and a plumber wouldn't wear a tie to work. Part of a Rovs work is to give friendly advice al pi derech hatoira and the buck stops there getting involved in more serious issues like testifying against another Rov is way above the average rovs wage packet and remit.
Indeed this would be a matter for a godol like the ones you mention or their modern day version.
Anonymity is not a defence for ignorance. A godol, in modern day parlance, is a person who is extremely spiritual and has thus attained extraordinary insights, be they giluy Eliyohu or ruach HaKodesh or whatever the applicable term is.
DeleteAs such, people flock to the Gedolim for blessings and spiritual guidance, as anything they say is believed to be the closest thing to having a Divine conversation. In these days of excessive physicality, people flock to them for financial gain, but that's a whole different debate.
The frequency with which people go to more than one godol with the same quest and receive differing responses, is also open to interpretation. Nevertheless, for the purpose of our little debate, a rov, rebbe, rosh yeshiva or whatever, doesn't start out a godol and then become a rov (with certain limited exceptions). They start out on the lower level of rov, dayan, rosh kollel, etc., and the occasional genuine gem shines through and achieves gadlus. Some of them may even show signs of gadlus from a tender age, yet the majority reach it through hard work and dedication to learning and ahavas H'.
Gedolim do get paid a wage. I know Rav Shach did. I know that Rav Shmuel Auerbach does and his father did too. In fact unless they have independent wealth, all Gedolim get paid exactly as non Gedolim rabbis get paid. And their jobs are fairly similar. Of course the rov of a tiny hamlet, who has very little knowledge of the more complicated issues, must recognise his limitations and refer the matter further up the ladder to the next in line, and so on, (as described in parshas Yisro). That doesn't mean it's not his job!
What you are saying is that if a patient goes to a GP with a complaint, say a pain in his throat. The doctor examines him and sees something out of place, but has no idea what it is., he should send the patient home because his job is to treat the patients who have the minor ailments that regularly crop up and for which he has been trained. This particular condition he hasn't been trained for, so it's not his job, ergo, he should ignore it.
I do hope that you are not a Rabbi, doctor or in any professional occupation in the practice of which people rely on you. For if they come across a situation which deviates from the norm, you'd just raise your hanss - undoubtedly after you've taken your hatd earned fee - and say it's not my job go away.
The role of the rov is far greater than you think it is. A banker may not wear a boiler suit but he certainly will put on a pair of jeans and a T-shirt for a pint at the pub.
ok I hear your point.
DeleteSo you agree we have at one end of the spectrum Gedolim / Rabonim like Reb Shmuel Aurbach and at the other lets call them Tiny Hamlet Rabonim. Rabonim who are a 'one stop shop' and Rabonim who have their limitations.
Clearly for your above suggested letter , 'to write a letter to an alleged victim stating that it is their halachic opinion that providing the police with an affidavit and testifying before a Court of British justice, is permitted and is not an issur of mesira'.A Hamlet rov will not do and we need someone of greater stature.
Who in London in the parsha would you suggest?!
Ignoring for the moment that the alleged victim simply requested a letter signed by a rov, without any specification. Although, coming from a charedi background one would assume that the signatory should be acceptable to the charedi community.
DeleteI personally would consider (in no particular order and any omissions are not because I don't consider the rov appropriate but because I have a poor memory) Rb S Freshwater - Sassow, Rb Feldman- GGBH emeritus, Rb Greenberg - GGBH, Rb Hertz - Chabad, Rb G Hager - BYDBH, Rb B Knopfler - Sinai, Dayan Y Liechtenstein - Federation, Rb S Weingarten- BLBH, Rb P Roberts - HAYC, Dayan C Ehrentreu - BHBY, Rb Y Levenberg - CTC, Rb Z Rabi - ECY, Rb C Schmahl - BAS (Goschalks), Dayan M Gelley - OC, Dayan Y Abrahams- KTC, Rb D Cohn - NHAYS & not forgetting the Moron Disaster himself. I have omitted the Rabbanim of the Kehilot Bnei Edot Hamizrah, as troublemakers would claim that they are unable to pasken for Ashkenazim, anyone affiliated to the Halpern family for obvious reasons and the younger Rabbonim who don't hold senior positions as they are likely to be (unreasonably) scorned. I'm sure that this list is not exhaustive as Rabbonim of similar status in Stamford Hill would hold equal sway. Manchester and Gateshead as well as other countries may be excluded for not qualifying as local.
The downsides of giving evidence are obvious; public humiliation by qcs and tittle tattle in the community.
ReplyDeleteThe upside is purely catharsis. Stripped of his status, the man is a danger to nobody.
If victims choose to testify we should support that; if they don't we should support that too. Public proclamations would just create another angry response from the morons rabbis on the other side, making reconciliation harder; it won't change any minds in a polarised community.
Chaimisters will always be chaimisters. The police's interests are not a moral consideration. Why should the victims suffer twice so a bunch of morons can disbelieve then anyway - unless they want to see him put away.
A victim who chooses not to testify out of fear for the reasons you've mentioned as a downside, I, and every reasonable person - even the prosecution - would accept as a valid choice.
DeleteWhat is unreasonable is to call the police to deal with a nuisance that you cannot settle on your own, then refuse to co-operate with them in their prosecution, on spurious religious grounds . Thereby creating a huge chillul HaShem.
It is also wrong of the Rabbonim to refuse to issue a letter - jointly or severally - confirming that a victim, who is prepared to testify, that such testimony is permitted in halacha, so that in the eventuality that any form of retaliation is taken by charedi institutions against the children for having a parent that "massered", there is a defence of I received a hetter*.
*Personally I wouldn't think such a letter is worth the paper it's written on, as Rabbonim are the first to disregard a hetter (or, even an issur) issued by anyone other than themselves. (RPR vs X in the matter of Eidus Under the Chuppa; Carrying in the London Eruv - Chilul Shabbos).
Any Pesak Halacha should not be from one Rov. It should be issued and signed as a general Pesak regarding assisting police in giving evidence, and it should be signed by all the Rabbonim in NW London, preferably also by Rav Chaim Kanievsky and one or two other Gedolei HaDor.
ReplyDeleteAs a psak in a controversial case, you are right. Although you are very unlikely to be able to get "all the Rabbonim in NW London" with or without Rav C Kanievsky and any other Gdolei HaDor, to agree on the time of day, let alone a psak haloche.
DeleteThis particular letter is a requirement by an individual, who is prepared to come forward and testify subject to receiving said letter. They require the letter to prove to any who will accuse them of acting outside the realms of what is halachically permitted, that they did act correctly, as per the written psak of Rav X. This person is satisfied with the signature of even one single rov.
Then at least three Rabbonim. No one Rov should be left with sole responsibility for such a controversial decision.
Delete